Hi Bengt,
As you stated those type of drives may be connected simply as Step/Dir drives. From KFlop's standpoint the system is open loop the same as with stepper drives (of course the system is really closed loop by the driver). The encoder signals could be parallel connected to Kanalog (differential) or KFlop (single ended) for monitoring.
However personally I would prefer to close the position loop with KFlop+Kanalog :}
TK
PS Vacation was great.
| Group: DynoMotion |
Message: 1615 |
From: Bengt Sjoelund |
Date: 7/31/2011 |
| Subject: Re: Granite Devices |
Hi Tom,
Things are going slow over here but now I am trying to get myself back on track. OK closing the loop with KFlop/Kanalog is the way to as I need more I/O. So how should I set the VSD driver? Torque I assume but there is also Position and Velocity.
Have been trying to get the driver/old DC servomotors setup with GD's setuptool and all is well in Torque but Position is not possible to get running good with all kinds of faults (following error/over current)
If I set the drivers in Torque mode, is so that I only need encoders to Kanalog and not split the encoder signal to VFD? It looks like I have been misled into a false path doing this.
So shortly is Torque the right way or not? If Velocity then I believe the encoder signal is needed, right?
I'm a bit confused so all help would be appreciated.
Cheers Bengt
--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Bengt,
>
> As you stated those type of drives may be connected simply as Step/Dir drives.Â
> From KFlop's standpoint the system is open loop the same as with stepper drives
> (of course the system is really closed loop by the driver). The encoder signals
> could be parallel connected to Kanalog (differential) or KFlop (single ended)
> for monitoring.Â
>
>
> However personally I would prefer to close the position loop with KFlop+Kanalog
> :}
>
> TK
>
> PS Vacation was great.
>
> Â
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@...>
> To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, August 24, 2010 4:37:10 AM
> Subject: [DynoMotion] Granite Devices
>
> Â
> Hi Tom,
> Doing some reserch for the future if cannot get my drivers fixed.
> How to connect Kflop/Kanalog to Granite Devices drivers?
> These are step/dir commanded and they close the loop by having encoders
> connected to the drive and also Home.
> http://www.granitedevices.fi/assets/files/vsd-e_160_dualdc_manual.pdf
>
> I hope you have had relaxing summer holiday's
>
> Cheers
> Bengt
> |
|
| Group: DynoMotion |
Message: 1616 |
From: Tom Kerekes |
Date: 7/31/2011 |
| Subject: Re: Granite Devices |
Hi Bengt,
Your understanding is correct. Torque or Velocity should both work. Velocity is usually the preferred method if the velocity loop in the amplifier is good. Velocity control makes the position loop tuning simpler. Simple P feedback gain makes a stable system because as we get closer to the position, the error goes to zero, which causes the velocity to go to zero, so we stop at the target position. Torque (Acceleration) is NOT stable with only P gain feedback. As we get closer to the position the error goes to zero, which causes the acceleration to go to zero, but this means we keep going faster until we pass the target position! But this type system can be made stable using some D gain. If you undrstand this Torque mode should work fine.
Yes for any amplifier to operate in Velocity mode it somehow needs to know the velocity either from encoder or a tachometer. Torque mode does not require any feedback the amplifer just controls the motor current.
Regards
TK --- On Sun, 7/31/11, Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@...> wrote:
From: Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@...>
Subject: [DynoMotion] Re: Granite Devices
To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, July 31, 2011, 3:02 AM
Hi Tom, Things are going slow over here but now I am trying to get myself back on track. OK closing the loop with KFlop/Kanalog is the way to as I need more I/O. So how should I set the VSD driver? Torque I assume but there is also Position and Velocity. Have been trying to get the driver/old DC servomotors setup with GD's setuptool and all is well in Torque but Position is not possible to get running good with all kinds of faults (following error/over current) If I set the drivers in Torque mode, is so that I only need encoders to Kanalog and not split the encoder signal to VFD? It looks like I have been misled into a false path doing this. So shortly is Torque the right way or not? If Velocity then I believe the encoder signal is needed, right? I'm a bit confused so all help would be appreciated. Cheers Bengt --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote: > > Hi Bengt, > > As you stated those type of drives may be connected simply as Step/Dir drives. > From KFlop's standpoint the system is open loop the same as with stepper drives > (of course the system is really closed loop by the driver). The encoder signals > could be parallel connected to Kanalog (differential) or KFlop (single ended) > for monitoring. > > > However personally I would prefer to close the position loop with KFlop+Kanalog > :} > > TK > > PS Vacation was great. > >  > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@...> > To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, August 24, 2010 4:37:10 AM > Subject: [DynoMotion] Granite Devices > >  > Hi Tom, > Doing some reserch for the future if cannot get my drivers fixed. > How to connect Kflop/Kanalog to Granite Devices drivers? > These are step/dir commanded and they close the loop by having encoders > connected to the drive and also Home. > http://www.granitedevices.fi/assets/files/vsd-e_160_dualdc_manual.pdf> > I hope you have had relaxing summer holiday's > > Cheers > Bengt >
|
|
|
| Group: DynoMotion |
Message: 1617 |
From: Bengt Sjoelund |
Date: 7/31/2011 |
| Subject: Re: Granite Devices |
Hi Tom,
Thanks for your explanation. If I go for Velocity mode how should the Tacho be connected?
Cheers
Bengt
--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Bengt,
> Â
> Your understanding is correct. Torque or Velocity should both work. Velocity is usually the preferred method if the velocity loop in the amplifier is good. Velocity control makes the position loop tuning simpler.   Simple P feedback gain makes a stable system because as we get closer to the position, the error goes to zero, which causes the velocity to go to zero, so we stop at the target position. Torque (Acceleration) is NOT stable with only P gain feedback. As we get closer to the position the error goes to zero, which causes the acceleration to go to zero, but this means we keep going faster until we pass the target position! But this type system can be made stable using some D gain. If you undrstand this Torque mode should work fine.
> Â
> Yes for any amplifier to operate in Velocity mode it somehow needs to know the velocity either from encoder or a tachometer. Torque mode does not require any feedback the amplifer just controls the motor current.
> Â
> Regards
> TK
>
> --- On Sun, 7/31/11, Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@...>
> Subject: [DynoMotion] Re: Granite Devices
> To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, July 31, 2011, 3:02 AM
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> Hi Tom,
> Things are going slow over here but now I am trying to get myself back on track. OK closing the loop with KFlop/Kanalog is the way to as I need more I/O. So how should I set the VSD driver? Torque I assume but there is also Position and Velocity.
> Have been trying to get the driver/old DC servomotors setup with GD's setuptool and all is well in Torque but Position is not possible to get running good with all kinds of faults (following error/over current)
> If I set the drivers in Torque mode, is so that I only need encoders to Kanalog and not split the encoder signal to VFD? It looks like I have been misled into a false path doing this.
>
> So shortly is Torque the right way or not? If Velocity then I believe the encoder signal is needed, right?
>
> I'm a bit confused so all help would be appreciated.
> Cheers Bengt
>
> --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kerekes <tk@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Bengt,
> >
> > As you stated those type of drives may be connected simply as Step/Dir drives.ÃÂ
> > From KFlop's standpoint the system is open loopÃÂ the same as with stepper drives
> > (of course the system is really closed loop by the driver).ÃÂ The encoder signals
> > could beÃÂ parallel connected to Kanalog (differential) or KFlop (single ended)
> > for monitoring.ÃÂ
> >
> >
> > However personally I would prefer to close the position loop with KFlop+Kanalog
> > :}
> >
> > TK
> >
> > PS Vacation was great.
> >
> > ÃÂ
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@>
> > To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tue, August 24, 2010 4:37:10 AM
> > Subject: [DynoMotion] Granite Devices
> >
> > ÃÂ
> > Hi Tom,
> > Doing some reserch for the future if cannot get my drivers fixed.
> > How to connect Kflop/Kanalog to Granite Devices drivers?
> > These are step/dir commanded and they close the loop by having encoders
> > connected to the drive and also Home.
> > http://www.granitedevices.fi/assets/files/vsd-e_160_dualdc_manual.pdf
> >
> > I hope you have had relaxing summer holiday's
> >
> > Cheers
> > Bengt
> >
> |
|
| Group: DynoMotion |
Message: 1618 |
From: oxforduniv |
Date: 7/31/2011 |
| Subject: Re: Granite Devices |
I would have thought you would have no need for a drive with PID loop capabilities, and if you go with Kanalog, you could go with the Simple drives such as AMC Copley etc, these have +-10v command.
For brushed motors, either the DC brushed or BLDC versions can be used just as effectively.
All the drive controls I have used have recommended torque mode for CNC applications?
Al.
--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, "Bengt Sjoelund" <cnc@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tom,
> Thanks for your explanation. If I go for Velocity mode how should the Tacho be connected?
> Cheers
> Bengt
>
> --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kerekes <tk@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Bengt,
> > Â
> > Your understanding is correct. Torque or Velocity should both work. Velocity is usually the preferred method if the velocity loop in the amplifier is good. Velocity control makes the position loop tuning simpler.   Simple P feedback gain makes a stable system because as we get closer to the position, the error goes to zero, which causes the velocity to go to zero, so we stop at the target position. Torque (Acceleration) is NOT stable with only P gain feedback. As we get closer to the position the error goes to zero, which causes the acceleration to go to zero, but this means we keep going faster until we pass the target position! But this type system can be made stable using some D gain. If you undrstand this Torque mode should work fine.
> > Â
> > Yes for any amplifier to operate in Velocity mode it somehow needs to know the velocity either from encoder or a tachometer. Torque mode does not require any feedback the amplifer just controls the motor current.
> > Â
> > Regards
> > TK
> >
> > --- On Sun, 7/31/11, Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@>
> > Subject: [DynoMotion] Re: Granite Devices
> > To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sunday, July 31, 2011, 3:02 AM
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Tom,
> > Things are going slow over here but now I am trying to get myself back on track. OK closing the loop with KFlop/Kanalog is the way to as I need more I/O. So how should I set the VSD driver? Torque I assume but there is also Position and Velocity.
> > Have been trying to get the driver/old DC servomotors setup with GD's setuptool and all is well in Torque but Position is not possible to get running good with all kinds of faults (following error/over current)
> > If I set the drivers in Torque mode, is so that I only need encoders to Kanalog and not split the encoder signal to VFD? It looks like I have been misled into a false path doing this.
> >
> > So shortly is Torque the right way or not? If Velocity then I believe the encoder signal is needed, right?
> >
> > I'm a bit confused so all help would be appreciated.
> > Cheers Bengt
> >
> > --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kerekes <tk@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Bengt,
> > >
> > > As you stated those type of drives may be connected simply as Step/Dir drives.ÃÂ
> > > From KFlop's standpoint the system is open loopÃÂ the same as with stepper drives
> > > (of course the system is really closed loop by the driver).ÃÂ The encoder signals
> > > could beÃÂ parallel connected to Kanalog (differential) or KFlop (single ended)
> > > for monitoring.ÃÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > However personally I would prefer to close the position loop with KFlop+Kanalog
> > > :}
> > >
> > > TK
> > >
> > > PS Vacation was great.
> > >
> > > ÃÂ
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@>
> > > To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tue, August 24, 2010 4:37:10 AM
> > > Subject: [DynoMotion] Granite Devices
> > >
> > > ÃÂ
> > > Hi Tom,
> > > Doing some reserch for the future if cannot get my drivers fixed.
> > > How to connect Kflop/Kanalog to Granite Devices drivers?
> > > These are step/dir commanded and they close the loop by having encoders
> > > connected to the drive and also Home.
> > > http://www.granitedevices.fi/assets/files/vsd-e_160_dualdc_manual.pdf
> > >
> > > I hope you have had relaxing summer holiday's
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Bengt
> > >
> >
> |
|
| Group: DynoMotion |
Message: 1619 |
From: Bengt Sjoelund |
Date: 7/31/2011 |
| Subject: Re: Granite Devices |
Hi Al,
The reason I did go for VSD is their multi motor capabilities, I realise now that torque is the way to go but as i sed earlier I was misled onto wrong path. I am in no way a servo guru and is not so easy to learn for retired old fart like me :)
Cheers Bengt
--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, "oxforduniv" <oxforduniv@...> wrote:
>
> I would have thought you would have no need for a drive with PID loop capabilities, and if you go with Kanalog, you could go with the Simple drives such as AMC Copley etc, these have +-10v command.
> For brushed motors, either the DC brushed or BLDC versions can be used just as effectively.
> All the drive controls I have used have recommended torque mode for CNC applications?
> Al. |
|
| Group: DynoMotion |
Message: 1622 |
From: Tom Kerekes |
Date: 7/31/2011 |
| Subject: Re: Granite Devices |
|
Hi Bengt,
I was speaking in general. That would depend on the Amplifier. I don't think your Amplifier has a tachometer input. Also does your motor have a tachometer?
In your case to operate the amplifier in velocity mode you would probably need to connect the encoder to the amplifier in parallel with Kanalog.
Regards
TK
--- On Sun, 7/31/11, Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@...> wrote:
From: Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@...>
Subject: [DynoMotion] Re: Granite Devices
To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, July 31, 2011, 5:55 AM
Hi Tom, Thanks for your explanation. If I go for Velocity mode how should the Tacho be connected? Cheers Bengt --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote: > > Hi Bengt, >  > Your understanding is correct. Torque or Velocity should both work. Velocity is usually the preferred method if the velocity loop in the amplifier is good. Velocity control makes the position loop tuning simpler.   Simple P feedback gain makes a stable system because as we get closer to the position, the error goes to zero, which causes the velocity to go to zero, so we stop at the target position. Torque (Acceleration) is NOT stable with only P gain feedback. As we get closer to the position the error goes to zero, which causes
the acceleration to go to zero, but this means we keep going faster until we pass the target position! But this type system can be made stable using some D gain. If you undrstand this Torque mode should work fine. >  > Yes for any amplifier to operate in Velocity mode it somehow needs to know the velocity either from encoder or a tachometer. Torque mode does not require any feedback the amplifer just controls the motor current. >  > Regards > TK > > --- On Sun, 7/31/11, Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@...> wrote: > > > From: Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@...> > Subject: [DynoMotion] Re: Granite Devices > To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com> Date: Sunday, July 31, 2011, 3:02 AM > > >  > > >
> Hi Tom, > Things are going slow over here but now I am trying to get myself back on track. OK closing the loop with KFlop/Kanalog is the way to as I need more I/O. So how should I set the VSD driver? Torque I assume but there is also Position and Velocity. > Have been trying to get the driver/old DC servomotors setup with GD's setuptool and all is well in Torque but Position is not possible to get running good with all kinds of faults (following error/over current) > If I set the drivers in Torque mode, is so that I only need encoders to Kanalog and not split the encoder signal to VFD? It looks like I have been misled into a false path doing this. > > So shortly is Torque the right way or not? If Velocity then I believe the encoder signal is needed, right? > > I'm a bit confused so all help would be appreciated. > Cheers Bengt > > --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kerekes <tk@> wrote: > > > > Hi Bengt, > > > > As you stated those type of drives may be connected simply as Step/Dir drives. > > From KFlop's standpoint the system is open loop the same as with stepper drives > > (of course the system is really closed loop by the driver). The encoder signals > > could be parallel connected to Kanalog (differential) or KFlop (single ended) > > for monitoring. > > > > > > However personally I would prefer to close the position loop with KFlop+Kanalog > > :} > > > > TK > > > > PS Vacation was great. > > > >  > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@> > > To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tue, August 24, 2010 4:37:10 AM > > Subject: [DynoMotion] Granite Devices > > > >  > > Hi Tom, > > Doing some reserch for the future if cannot get my drivers fixed. > > How to connect Kflop/Kanalog to Granite Devices drivers? > > These are step/dir commanded and they close the loop by having encoders > > connected to the drive and also Home. > > http://www.granitedevices.fi/assets/files/vsd-e_160_dualdc_manual.pdf> > > > I hope you
have had relaxing summer holiday's > > > > Cheers > > Bengt > > >
| |
|
|
| Group: DynoMotion |
Message: 1623 |
From: Bengt Sjoelund |
Date: 7/31/2011 |
| Subject: Re: Granite Devices |
Hi Tom,
Motors do have Tacho but I think that VSD does not so it is as simple as Torque mode. I have been doing some test with VSD set to Torque Mode and all axis run OK with 1.5V AA cell so now I am about to start doing a set-up in Kmotion, probably I will run in to some kind of trouble so I will be back.
Cheers Bengt
--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Bengt,
> Â
> I was speaking in general. That would depend on the Amplifier. I don't think your Amplifier has a tachometer input. Also does your motor have a tachometer?
> Â
> In your case to operate the amplifier in velocity mode you would probably need to connect the encoder to the amplifier in parallel with Kanalog.
> Â
> Regards
> TKÂ
>
>
> --- On Sun, 7/31/11, Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@...>
> Subject: [DynoMotion] Re: Granite Devices
> To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, July 31, 2011, 5:55 AM
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> Hi Tom,
> Thanks for your explanation. If I go for Velocity mode how should the Tacho be connected?
> Cheers
> Bengt
>
> --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kerekes <tk@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Bengt,
> > ÃÂ
> > Your understanding is correct.ÃÂ Torque or Velocity should both work.ÃÂ Velocity is usually the preferred method if the velocity loop in the amplifier is good.ÃÂ Velocity control makes the position loop tuning simpler.ÃÂ ÃÂ ÃÂ Simple P feedback gain makes a stable system because as we get closer to the position, the error goes to zero, which causes the velocity to go to zero, so we stop at the target position.ÃÂ Torque (Acceleration) isÃÂ NOT stable with only P gain feedback.ÃÂ As we get closer to the position the error goes to zero, which causes the acceleration to go to zero, but this means we keep going faster until we pass the target position!ÃÂ But this type system can be made stable using some D gain.ÃÂ If you undrstand this Torque mode should work fine.
> > ÃÂ
> > Yes for any amplifier to operate in Velocity mode it somehow needs to know the velocity either from encoder or a tachometer.ÃÂ Torque mode does not require any feedback the amplifer just controls the motor current.
> > ÃÂ
> > Regards
> > TK
> >
> > --- On Sun, 7/31/11, Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@>
> > Subject: [DynoMotion] Re: Granite Devices
> > To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sunday, July 31, 2011, 3:02 AM
> >
> >
> > ÃÂ
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Tom,
> > Things are going slow over here but now I am trying to get myself back on track. OK closing the loop with KFlop/Kanalog is the way to as I need more I/O. So how should I set the VSD driver? Torque I assume but there is also Position and Velocity.
> > Have been trying to get the driver/old DC servomotors setup with GD's setuptool and all is well in Torque but Position is not possible to get running good with all kinds of faults (following error/over current)
> > If I set the drivers in Torque mode, is so that I only need encoders to Kanalog and not split the encoder signal to VFD? It looks like I have been misled into a false path doing this.
> >
> > So shortly is Torque the right way or not? If Velocity then I believe the encoder signal is needed, right?
> >
> > I'm a bit confused so all help would be appreciated.
> > Cheers Bengt
> >
> > --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kerekes <tk@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Bengt,
> > >
> > > As you stated those type of drives may be connected simply as Step/Dir drives.ÃâÃÂ
> > > From KFlop's standpoint the system is open loopÃâàthe same as with stepper drives
> > > (of course the system is really closed loop by the driver).ÃâàThe encoder signals
> > > could beÃâàparallel connected to Kanalog (differential) or KFlop (single ended)
> > > for monitoring.ÃâÃÂ
> > >
> > >
> > > However personally I would prefer to close the position loop with KFlop+Kanalog
> > > :}
> > >
> > > TK
> > >
> > > PS Vacation was great.
> > >
> > > ÃâÃÂ
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Bengt Sjoelund <cnc@>
> > > To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tue, August 24, 2010 4:37:10 AM
> > > Subject: [DynoMotion] Granite Devices
> > >
> > > ÃâÃÂ
> > > Hi Tom,
> > > Doing some reserch for the future if cannot get my drivers fixed.
> > > How to connect Kflop/Kanalog to Granite Devices drivers?
> > > These are step/dir commanded and they close the loop by having encoders
> > > connected to the drive and also Home.
> > > http://www.granitedevices.fi/assets/files/vsd-e_160_dualdc_manual.pdf
> > >
> > > I hope you have had relaxing summer holiday's
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Bengt
> > >
> >
> |
|
| |
